Serious question....

[DarterBlue]

3 minutes ago, HSFBfan said:

No. See its called being smart and not having kids.

So you are for some policy that restricts people from having kids, then. How would the determination be made? Would it be based on the health of the parents? You do realize that some genes are recessive, don't you? Would everyone have to subject themselves to DNA testing or other intrusive methods prior to being given the green light to have kids? 

Would the sacrifice of personal liberty be worth it? Do you value personal liberty?

[HSFBfan]

Just now, DarterBlue said:

So you are for some policy that restricts people from having kids, then. How would the determination be made? Would it be based on the health of the parents? You do realize that some genes are recessive, don't you? Would everyone have to subject themselves to DNA testing or other intrusive methods prior to being given the green light to have kids? 

Would the sacrifice of personal liberty be worth it? Do you value personal liberty?

Yes I value personal liberty but I also value how much things cost. And things such as education are increasing more and more. So if you put more responsibility on yourself and realize how much of that something is going to cost you need to determine if that is worth it. Start with the health of the parents and go backwards. You say some genes are recessive and they are. So go back a generation or 2. But all im saying is that people with kids who have problems are costing the rest of society a lot of money and in my opinion why should society pick up the tab? why isnt that on the parents themselves?

[DarterBlue]

1 minute ago, HSFBfan said:

But all im saying is that people with kids who have problems are costing the rest of society a lot of money and in my opinion why should society pick up the tab? why isnt that on the parents themselves?

If the parents are broke, they cannot pick up the tab. A lot of people are broke. So one way or another, either through spending money on the so called retarded kids or leaving them to die on the side of the streets, society will pick up the tab.

Regarding your response to testing, most people don't really know what traits they are carrying, let alone the traits of their sex partners. Short of forcing individuals to get abortions if you enforce mandatory testing after conception, or forcing all individuals of child bearing age to undergo a lot of testing regardless of whether they profess a desire to have children, retarded people will still be with us. Heck, even if you impose testing there will still be some physically handicapped and low IQ individuals. We are not at the GOD stage yet. So, it's back to the question, do you think they should just be abandoned? What if the individual is a close family member? How would you feel then? 

Or are you the kind of person that cares only for himself? 

[HSFBfan]

3 minutes ago, DarterBlue said:

If the parents are broke, they cannot pick up the tab. A lot of people are broke. So one way or another, either through spending money on the so called retarded kids or leaving them to die on the side of the streets, society will pick up the tab.

Regarding your response to testing, most people don't really know what traits they are carrying, let alone the traits of their sex partners. Short of forcing individuals to get abortions if you enforce mandatory testing after conception, or forcing all individuals of child bearing age to undergo a lot of testing regardless of whether they profess a desire to have children, retarded people will still be with us. Heck, even if you impose testing there will still be some physically handicapped and low IQ individuals. We are not at the GOD stage yet. So, it's back to the question, do you think they should just be abandoned? What if the individual is a close family member? How would you feel then? 

Or are you the kind of person that cares only for himself? 

Then they shouldnt have kids....if your so broke you cant afford to have kids why are you having kids? Thats another thing that has pissed me off. if it was a close family member I would expect my parents to pick up the tab and not put the burden on society. We need less burden on society and more on personal responsibility. You should know what your carrying. You should know your family history enough to understand some if not most of the traits. And when your seeing someone that conversation should be had as well. But I guess people dont have that conversation

[DarterBlue]

5 minutes ago, HSFBfan said:

You should know what your carrying. You should know your family history enough to understand some if not most of the traits.

Do you know all of the above about yourself? 

 

5 minutes ago, HSFBfan said:

Then they shouldnt have kids....if your so broke you cant afford to have kids why are you having kids?

So you believe only the wealthy are entitled to human rights? What if you end up being a basket case? What do you do then, kill yourself? 

It seems that your ideal society is a Darwinian one where dog eats dog and no one has a responsibility to anyone but himself. I guess you are entitled to that point of view. I certainly hope you are never in a position to enforce it in any country I happen to live in. 

[HSFBfan]

3 minutes ago, DarterBlue said:

Do you know all of the above about yourself? 

 

So you believe only the wealthy are entitled to human rights? What if you end up being a basket case? What do you do then, kill yourself? 

It seems that your ideal society is a Darwinian one where dog eats dog and no one has a responsibility to anyone but himself. I guess you are entitled to that point of view. I certainly hope you are never in a position to enforce it in any country I happen to live in. 

You dont have to be wealthy to have kids but you better have enough money to now sustain yourself and the kid without any government help. If that means you need to make 100k to do that than make sure your making that kind of money. If you need to make 50k than do that. Whatever the money is to make to live comfortable in your area. The whole world is dog eat dog. You can clearly see that. 

Yes I know the traits of my family. I understand what I have been exposed to thru being born. I have had several talks with family members to understand everything. 

[DarterBlue]

14 minutes ago, HSFBfan said:

Yes I know the traits of my family. I understand what I have been exposed to thru being born. I have had several talks with family members to understand everything. 

Several talks are not the same thing as getting tested. Anyway, I am out. I understand where you are coming from, but totally and emphatically disagree with you. We could have a conversation about what would be appropriate with respect to providing resources for the "challenged." However, I could never support a society that abandons them. 

Good luck with it. 

[HSFBfan]

8 minutes ago, DarterBlue said:

Several talks are not the same thing as getting tested. Anyway, I am out. I understand where you are coming from, but totally and emphatically disagree with you. We could have a conversation about what would be appropriate with respect to providing resources for the "challenged." However, I could never support a society that abandons them. 

Good luck with it. 

Nobody is going to agree with me. When you go against social "norms" you find out that you are in the vast minority and you have to be ok with that. Yes can i actually get tested sure I can but at least I understand the risks due to genetics. 

Ill bite before you are out. How would you tackle the problem? I have given you my opinions so before you run give me an opinion of how you would take the problem that is costing big money

Lets have the conversation your willing to have

[Belly Bob]

19 hours ago, HSFBfan said:

So by your logic kids that come from poor neighborhoods shouldn't even bother to try since their parents cant help them

I think that that's what your view implies, at least if you have a learning disability. 

If you have a learning disability like dyslexia, which, as you yourself point out, has nothing at all to do with intelligence, and your parents can't afford to get you help for it, then on your preferred policies, you'd have little chance at landing anything but a low-paying, unskilled labor job. 

[HSFBfan]

Just now, Belly Bob said:

I think that that's what your view implies, at least if you have a learning disability. 

If you have a learning disability like dyslexia, which, as you yourself point out, has nothing at all to do with intelligence, and your parents can't afford to get you help for it, then on your preferred policies, you'd have little chance at landing anything but a low-paying, unskilled labor job. 

Can dyslexia be passed from generation to generation? Like can you be tested for it and get a percentage that your child will have it? The whole point of this thread is tackle spending in the education world

[Belly Bob]

6 minutes ago, HSFBfan said:

Can dyslexia be passed from generation to generation? Like can you be tested for it and get a percentage that your child will have it? The whole point of this thread is tackle spending in the education world

I don't know.

Do you want to revise your policy then? We'll pay for "retarded" kids only if there aren't tests that were available to their parents and that could have given them information on how likely it would be that their kids would have a learning disability?

What are the odds you like?

What happens in the thousands and thousands of cases in which people have kids who develop learning disabilities even thought the odds were against it?

[HSFBfan]

1 minute ago, Belly Bob said:

I don't know.

Do you want to revise your policy then? We'll pay for "retarded" kids only if there aren't tests that were available to their parents and that could have given them information on how likely it would be that their kids would have a learning disability?

What are the odds you like?

What happens in the thousands and thousands of cases in which people have kids who develop learning disabilities even thought the odds were against it?

Let the parents pay for it. Thats the answer that I can come up with it. There has got to be a way for society to stop picking up the tab. Just like with social programs society needs to stop picking up the tab and put the responsibility on the person themselves. Think about all of the people who dont have kids or dont have kids in schools...why are they forced thru school taxes to pay for any students? 

[noonereal]

1 minute ago, HSFBfan said:

Can dyslexia be passed from generation to generation? Like can you be tested for it and get a percentage that your child will have it? The whole point of this thread is tackle spending in the education world

Yes it genetic and you need to stop.

Dyslexia has nothing to do with intelligence and your theory that anyone that does not learn like you should pay extra is sick and ignorant.

[noonereal]

Just now, HSFBfan said:

Let the parents pay for it. Thats the answer that I can come up with it. There has got to be a way for society to stop picking up the tab. Just like with social programs society needs to stop picking up the tab and put the responsibility on the person themselves. Think about all of the people who dont have kids or dont have kids in schools...why are they forced thru school taxes to pay for any students? 

We are one tribe. We all fill different functions. We all share the resources of our combined toils. 

This is what man does. Always has. 

Yes, capitalism has tended to bastard this instinctive model but even with this as a governing economic system your wants are... evil. 

Time for you to STFU. 

[noonereal]

Just now, Drummer61 said:

gene degradation in the last 50 years

Link to studies

thanks

[Belly Bob]

10 minutes ago, HSFBfan said:

Let the parents pay for it. Thats the answer that I can come up with it. There has got to be a way for society to stop picking up the tab. Just like with social programs society needs to stop picking up the tab and put the responsibility on the person themselves. Think about all of the people who dont have kids or dont have kids in schools...why are they forced thru school taxes to pay for any students? 

Well, look, I know of Libertarians who have tried to find principled grounds for not paying taxes here (say, for education) but paying taxes there (say, for defense). 

But it turns out that it's a very hard thing to do. Once you argue that the state ought to raise taxes for x, it's hard to deny that the state ought to raise taxes for y also. And so on. 

So take some time and work your view out in some detail. I think you'll find that it's hard to do. 

Or maybe you are an anarchist who thinks we shouldn't have a state at all. IDK. You might think that that kind of view fits best with your "I care about myself and my dependents only" viewpoint. 

[HSFBfan]

2 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

Well, look, I know of Libertarians who have tried to find principled grounds for not paying taxes here (say, for education) but paying taxes there (say, for defense). 

But it turns out that it's a very hard thing to do. Once you argue that the state ought to raise taxes for x, it's hard to deny that the state ought to raise taxes for y also. And so on. 

So take some time and work your view out in some detail. I think you'll find that it's hard to do. 

Or maybe you are an anarchist who thinks we shouldn't have a state at all. IDK. You might think that that kind of view fits best with your "I care about myself and my dependents only" viewpoint. 

Well yeah I care about me and my family. Thats what everyone should care about their own. Yes of course people feel the need to raise money for this or that depending on however they feel. Im just putting out there how I feel. I just feel that a ton of money is spent on societys dime when maybe education like college should be on you. Or society should only be asked to spend x amount of money and if you need more money than start writing the check

[noonereal]

3 minutes ago, HSFBfan said:

maybe education like college should be on you.

maybe it should be on the folks that profit most from education, the non working investor class. 

Think on that a while. 

[Belly Bob]

1 minute ago, HSFBfan said:

Well yeah I care about me and my family. Thats what everyone should care about their own. Yes of course people feel the need to raise money for this or that depending on however they feel. Im just putting out there how I feel. I just feel that a ton of money is spent on societys dime when maybe education like college should be on you. Or society should only be asked to spend x amount of money and if you need more money than start writing the check

If it's all just a matter of opinion and personal feelings, then it's a complete waste of time to try to figure out what the best policy would be, since there is no best policy; there are just opinions and personal feelings about policies, which are worth about as much as your opinions and personal feelings about whether vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate. 

[HSFBfan]

1 minute ago, Belly Bob said:

If it's all just a matter of opinion and personal feelings, then it's a complete waste of time to try to figure out what the best policy would be, since there is no best policy; there are just opinions and personal feelings about policies, which are worth about as much as your opinions and personal feelings about whether vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate. 

Im not looking for an exact answer. Just thoughts. I only eat vanilla ice cream btw lol. But there has got to be certainly a better policy. There is just way too much spending. 

[noonereal]

1 minute ago, HSFBfan said:

There is just way too much spending. 

look at the pensions where the real theft takes place. 

[DarterBlue]

7 hours ago, HSFBfan said:

Nobody is going to agree with me. When you go against social "norms" you find out that you are in the vast minority and you have to be ok with that

There is probably a reason nobody is going to agree with you. Have you considered that you may just be wrong?

7 hours ago, HSFBfan said:

Ill bite before you are out. How would you tackle the problem?

 

7 hours ago, HSFBfan said:

Lets have the conversation your willing to have

How would I tackle the problem? First, the problem, as you frame it, does not just apply to the "education" of those you derisively refer to as "retards." It actually relates to the whole role public education plays in our society.

In most of the rest of the world, schools are focused much more on education and far less on both extracurricular activities (sports, drama, etc.). Second, a lot of what is provided by schools, free and reduced lunch, speech therapy, etc. is also not provided in most of the rest of the world. Third, there is the idea that even those that have significant disabilities should be provided with an education that mirrors, as best as possible, the education given to mainstream students. Fourth, in many countries kids are streamed sometime during their middle school years into either academic or vocational tracks. The feeling is, that through some kind of objective testing, at this stage you can determine what kind of education is most appropriate for each student. If you take all of these things into consideration, a lot could be done to reduce the overall actual cost of a public education. And relieve you, the disgruntled taxpayer, of the cost you don't want to incur. 

With the above said, what would I do? As a believer in democracy, at least as it relates to the making of significant policy affecting all of society, I would be for some kind of referendum on the matter. Let society decide. Of course given our system of government with the emphasis of the rights of individual states with respect to appropriate education, this will probably never happen. 

If I were a governor at the state level, I would want to implement a system that provides a solid, basic education for all residents of the state. This system would be flexible enough to recognize that not all kids have equal academic ability (just as not all have equal athletic ability, or whatever else you wish to name). At the end of primary school or early in middle school, tests would be designed to see who best fits into where and the kids would be streamed appropriately. The German model could serve as an excellent example of such a system. Parents who could afford to, if they did not like what was being offered for their children, could as they are allowed now, opt to send their kids to a private school of their own choosing on their own dime. And, no, this would not exempt them from their share of funding public education. 

In the USA today, education is a hodge podge of different policies depending on your state and even your region within the state. This is not efficient or effective. And, I fear, it is not providing the kind of education necessary to maintain dominance on the world stage. When I first arrived here I was amazed by the fact that at the University I did my graduate degree at, well over 90% of the Science and Engineering Graduate Students were foreign nationals. This is reflected today in Silicon Valley's strident fight to ensure that foreign nationals are able to continue to get work visas to fill the technology void. Instead of pursuing such short sighted policies (which are aimed by the way at reducing cost), resources should be spent at addressing this issue. There is no assurance that relying extensively on foreign born nationals in critical areas of the workforce is sustainable. And, even if it is, it has implications for everything from National Security to social stability.

Why is it that it is almost impossible to get some of our best and brightest young minds, particularly in science, spend time educating future generations?   

Anyway, the above are my ten cents. As you can see, rather than make it about the least among us as you would, it focuses on the broader picture. Given who I feel you are and what you seem to support, I don't believe you will see it the way I do. And, while I would like a response, I don't wish or expect to prolong the conversation. One of the biggest issues confronting us today is the whole role of government and what part it is to play in society. There are those on the right that seem to think National Security and Defense are the only areas Government should focus on. I respectfully disagree. Unless the goal is to have the USA devolve into a second tier society with nukes, this is untenable and unworkable in the intermediate term, let alone the long run. 

[HSFBfan]

12 hours ago, DarterBlue said:

There is probably a reason nobody is going to agree with you. Have you considered that you may just be wrong?

 

How would I tackle the problem? First, the problem, as you frame it, does not just apply to the "education" of those you derisively refer to as "retards." It actually relates to the whole role public education plays in our society.

In most of the rest of the world, schools are focused much more on education and far less on both extracurricular activities (sports, drama, etc.). Second, a lot of what is provided by schools, free and reduced lunch, speech therapy, etc. is also not provided in most of the rest of the world. Third, there is the idea that even those that have significant disabilities should be provided with an education that mirrors, as best as possible, the education given to mainstream students. Fourth, in many countries kids are streamed sometime during their middle school years into either academic or vocational tracks. The feeling is, that through some kind of objective testing, at this stage you can determine what kind of education is most appropriate for each student. If you take all of these things into consideration, a lot could be done to reduce the overall actual cost of a public education. And relieve you, the disgruntled taxpayer, of the cost you don't want to incur. 

With the above said, what would I do? As a believer in democracy, at least as it relates to the making of significant policy affecting all of society, I would be for some kind of referendum on the matter. Let society decide. Of course given our system of government with the emphasis of the rights of individual states with respect to appropriate education, this will probably never happen. 

If I were a governor at the state level, I would want to implement a system that provides a solid, basic education for all residents of the state. This system would be flexible enough to recognize that not all kids have equal academic ability (just as not all have equal athletic ability, or whatever else you wish to name). At the end of primary school or early in middle school, tests would be designed to see who best fits into where and the kids would be streamed appropriately. The German model could serve as an excellent example of such a system. Parents who could afford to, if they did not like what was being offered for their children, could as they are allowed now, opt to send their kids to a private school of their own choosing on their own dime. And, no, this would not exempt them from their share of funding public education. 

In the USA today, education is a hodge podge of different policies depending on your state and even your region within the state. This is not efficient or effective. And, I fear, it is not providing the kind of education necessary to maintain dominance on the world stage. When I first arrived here I was amazed by the fact that at the University I did my graduate degree at, well over 90% of the Science and Engineering Graduate Students were foreign nationals. This is reflected today in Silicon Valley's strident fight to ensure that foreign nationals are able to continue to get work visas to fill the technology void. Instead of pursuing such short sighted policies (which are aimed by the way at reducing cost), resources should be spent at addressing this issue. There is no assurance that relying extensively on foreign born nationals in critical areas of the workforce is sustainable. And, even if it is, it has implications for everything from National Security to social stability.

Why is it that it is almost impossible to get some of our best and brightest young minds, particularly in science, spend time educating future generations?   

Anyway, the above are my ten cents. As you can see, rather than make it about the least among us as you would, it focuses on the broader picture. Given who I feel you are and what you seem to support, I don't believe you will see it the way I do. And, while I would like a response, I don't wish or expect to prolong the conversation. One of the biggest issues confronting us today is the whole role of government and what part it is to play in society. There are those on the right that seem to think National Security and Defense are the only areas Government should focus on. I respectfully disagree. Unless the goal is to have the USA devolve into a second tier society with nukes, this is untenable and unworkable in the intermediate term, let alone the long run. 

First of all I will respond by saying these are my opinions so they cant be wrong. Wrong can only happen when you get facts wrong. All you can do with an opinion is disagree with them. 

With the foreign countries having more school and less after school activities yes that is true and something that I disagree with. I believe after school activities are a big part of going up esp sports. 

So now you want more testing....something that I have posted against. I dont want to see more testing. I want to see less testing. You can figure it out for yourself if you belong in a vocational school. You really dont need a test to tell you that. 

With the German model we do that here. When a parent sends their kid to Don Bosco or Bergen or wherever they have to pick up the 17k a year plus the taxes for their public school which again I completely disagree with. You shouldnt have to pick up the tab of public school if you dont have any kids there. 

Maybe we dont care about science?? Not sure. I was never a big science guy myself so I truly dont know nor care why our best and brightest cant spend time or wont spend time. 

Our government isnt supposed to be in everything. They are not supposed to be in our schools, our healthcare or pretty much anywhere near our personal lives. Our government has overstepped its bounds so many times in this countries history and we as a people or should I say sheep just seem to be ok with this as we dig our heads in the sand and take the federal government right up our ass a little bit deeper

[DarterBlue]

30 minutes ago, HSFBfan said:

First of all I will respond by saying these are my opinions so they cant be wrong. Wrong can only happen when you get facts wrong. All you can do with an opinion is disagree with them. 

With the foreign countries having more school and less after school activities yes that is true and something that I disagree with. I believe after school activities are a big part of going up esp sports. 

So now you want more testing....something that I have posted against. I dont want to see more testing. I want to see less testing. You can figure it out for yourself if you belong in a vocational school. You really dont need a test to tell you that. 

With the German model we do that here. When a parent sends their kid to Don Bosco or Bergen or wherever they have to pick up the 17k a year plus the taxes for their public school which again I completely disagree with. You shouldnt have to pick up the tab of public school if you dont have any kids there. 

Maybe we dont care about science?? Not sure. I was never a big science guy myself so I truly dont know nor care why our best and brightest cant spend time or wont spend time. 

Our government isnt supposed to be in everything. They are not supposed to be in our schools, our healthcare or pretty much anywhere near our personal lives. Our government has overstepped its bounds so many times in this countries history and we as a people or should I say sheep just seem to be ok with this as we dig our heads in the sand and take the federal government right up our ass a little bit deeper

I don't know where to begin. But I will offer this. No need to respond if you don't wish as I am done with this thread.

1. Opinions can be totally devoid of fact and, hence, wrong headed. For example a parent may feel his child can do no wrong. It suits that parent's narrative, but is almost certainly wrong.

2. Nowhere in my missive did I really express an opinion on the role of testing overall. What I did state, is that at some stage, I suggested Middle School, it may be appropriate to evaluate what type of education makes the most sense for different kids. I stated that an appropriately designed test may inform that determination.

3. Please explain your understanding of the German Model to me. I don't think you have the slightest idea.

4. To suggest that the World's preeminent superpower should not care about Science just blows me away. How do you maintain your preeminence if you don't have top notch scientists? How do you even protect your country from, as Drummer likes to describe them, foreign invaders?

5. I would suggest that the only countries in the world where government is totally out of the areas you mention are failed states, many of which are part of the group of countries our President derisively referred to in his famous/infamous sh**th**e statement. Is that where you want the country to go? 

For your own benefit, you really need to read and interact more broadly. I am shocked that a degreed individual could seriously believe some of what you expressed above. It does not bode well for the future ...

As Daytona Dan would say: "Peace Out."

[HSFBfan]

5 minutes ago, DarterBlue said:

I don't know where to begin. But I will offer this. No need to respond if you don't wish as I am done with this thread.

1. Opinions can be totally devoid of fact and, hence, wrong headed. For example a parent may feel his child can do no wrong. It suits that parent's narrative, but is almost certainly wrong.

2. Nowhere in my missive did I really express an opinion on the role of testing overall. What I did state, is that at some stage, I suggested Middle School, it may be appropriate to evaluate what type of education makes the most sense for different kids. I stated that an appropriately designed test may inform that determination.

3. Please explain your understanding of the German Model to me. I don't think you have the slightest idea.

4. To suggest that the World's preeminent superpower should not care about Science just blows me away. How do you maintain your preeminence if you don't have top notch scientists? How do you even protect your country from, as Drummer likes to describe them, foreign invaders?

5. I would suggest that the only countries in the world where government is totally out of the areas you mention are failed states, many of which are part of the group of countries our President derisively referred to in his famous/infamous sh**th**e statement. Is that where you want the country to go? 

For your own benefit, you really need to read and interact more broadly. I am shocked that a degreed individual could seriously believe some of what you expressed above. It does not bode well for the future ...

As Daytona Dan would say: "Peace Out."

Peace. It was fun I guess. And a lot of shithole countries have a ton of government in lives. 

When I went with the German model thing I was talking about what you brought up. 

I didnt say as a country we dont care about science I said I could care less. I never liked it in school so for me it was a waste of time. 

As a parent to say their kid can do no wrong just dismisses actions that are wrong. When they do wrong there is a fact of doing wrong and they are dismissing it. 

Honestly its very easy to believe what I believe. And its actually quite fun to be in the minority on the topic. As everyone wants status quo I do not. 

And you keep saying your done and yet here you are lol