The Last Dance

[rockinl]

5 minutes ago, DevilDog said:

Kareem Abdul-Jabaar.  Taking nothing away from Michael.  THE GOAT.  But if given my choice and in his prime.  I would take Kareem. Dude won Championships in Milwaukee and LA.   The most dominate Player I have ever seen.   Damn near shot 60% from the Field and was a 70+% free throw shooter.  Kareem on the block.    Jordan and Pippen changed the dynamics from the dominate big man.  But I Remember Ewing and Lambeer giving them hell.  Imagine Jabaar.   And I believe Shaq and Kobe's Lakers would have beat them.  Kobe would have went toe to toe with MJ and Shaq would have dominated them inside.   Remember Kareem retired 2 years earlier when Michael and the Bulls beat an old Lakers team in 1991.

Because this was unstoppable. 

And he did it with humbleness and professionalism. The best athletes of all time usually let their play do the talking.

[BUFORDGAWOLVES]

2 minutes ago, rockinl said:

And he did it with humbleness and professionalism. The best athletes of all time usually let their play do the talking.

Hard to beat, and the hook shot is not a shot developed overnight.

If it's wrong technique wise, thousands of shots to correct.

BGW

 

[Horsefly]

21 minutes ago, DevilDog said:

Kareem Abdul-Jabaar.  Taking nothing away from Michael.  THE GOAT.  But if given my choice and in his prime.  I would take Kareem. Dude won Championships in Milwaukee and LA.   The most dominate Player I have ever seen.   Damn near shot 60% from the Field and was a 70+% free throw shooter.  Kareem on the block.    Jordan and Pippen changed the dynamics from the dominate big man.  But I Remember Ewing and Lambeer giving them hell.  Imagine Jabaar.   And I believe Shaq and Kobe's Lakers would have beat them.  Kobe would have went toe to toe with MJ and Shaq would have dominated them inside.   Remember Kareem retired 2 years earlier when Michael and the Bulls beat an old Lakers team in 1991.  There are MJ Copycats.    This is an original never duplicated or replicated. 

Because this was unstoppable. 

This right here is why I have Jordan at the top, very few changed the dynamics of the game, Wilt was another.  
 

[DevilDog]

21 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

This right here is why I have Jordan at the top, very few changed the dynamics of the game, Wilt was another.  
 

But Kareem did.  Take college for instance the Slam Dunk was outlawed because of Kareem.  What did Jordan do in Basketball at any level that resulted in something like this.  He developed the Sky Hook because of it. 

As a result of the rule, Alcindor developed a good hook shot, which he used effectively during his playing days in college and the NBA. He played professional basketball from 1969-1989.  

They felt he would be unstoppable, so they changed the rules to forbid dunking in college games. This was called the "Alcindor Rule." The Alcindor rule held from 1967 to 1975, when it was rescinded, and players were allowed to dunk again.

But Kareem's sky hook was so devastating, opposing coaches and players had no other choice but to poke him in the eyes to try to stop it.  This is when Kareem had to bring out the goggles.  So, for you youngsters out there who were born in the '90s and later, contrary to popular belief, it was not Rip Hamilton or A'mare Stoudemaire that were the first to sport something protective over their faces during a game.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/530476-the-greatest-player-in-nba-history-why-kareem-abdul-jabbar-deserves-the-title

[DevilDog]

For the Record I would have taken Kareem vs. Everybody in NBA History 1 on 1 😎

[Horsefly]

1 minute ago, DevilDog said:

But Kareem did.  Take college for instance the Slam Dunk was outlawed because of Kareem.  What did Jordan do in Basketball at any level that resulted in something like this.  He developed the Sky Hook because of it. 

As a result of the rule, Alcindor developed a good hook shot, which he used effectively during his playing days in college and the NBA. He played professional basketball from 1969-1989.  

They felt he would be unstoppable, so they changed the rules to forbid dunking in college games. This was called the "Alcindor Rule." The Alcindor rule held from 1967 to 1975, when it was rescinded, and players were allowed to dunk again.

But Kareem's sky hook was so devastating, opposing coaches and players had no other choice but to poke him in the eyes to try to stop it.  This is when Kareem had to bring out the goggles.  So, for you youngsters out there who were born in the '90s and later, contrary to popular belief, it was not Rip Hamilton or A'mare Stoudemaire that were the first to sport something protective over their faces during a game.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/530476-the-greatest-player-in-nba-history-why-kareem-abdul-jabbar-deserves-the-title

I’m talking changing the NBA game or dynamics. 

[Horsefly]

1 minute ago, DevilDog said:

For the Record I would have taken Kareem vs. Everybody in NBA History 1 on 1 😎

He’s not a bad choice, as long as he wasn’t pulled out from the paint to guard more athletic big man like we have today.  

his style of play doesn’t transcend across all eras like Jordan’s does. 

[DevilDog]

7 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

He’s not a bad choice, as long as he wasn’t pulled out from the paint to guard more athletic big man like we have today.  

his style of play doesn’t transcend across all eras like Jordan’s does. 

I disagree with this.  Because he would dominate what is considered Centers in today's game and now with the zone Defense he has no reason to be pulled from the paint.  Remember he was a great passer too.  I am not arguing against Jordan because he's been made mythical.  Kareem was incredible.  I can see him and magic going back and forth till he got Kareem on the block for that Hook and I was not a fan of his I was a Fan of the Sixers and Dr J.  But Kareem was unstoppable.  

[Horsefly]

15 minutes ago, DevilDog said:

I disagree with this.  Because he would dominate what is considered Centers in today's game and now with the zone Defense he has no reason to be pulled from the paint.  Remember he was a great passer too.  I am not arguing against Jordan because he's been made mythical.  Kareem was incredible.  I can see him and magic going back and forth till he got Kareem on the block for that Hook and I was not a fan of his I was a Fan of the Sixers and Dr J.  But Kareem was unstoppable.  

That’s another shortcoming, Kareem never played zone in the NBA, one other thing he’d have to adjust to.  

[HooverOutlaw]

2 hours ago, DevilDog said:

Also what made him special was this guy on his right.  No one in the modern era had a better sidekick.

 

 

Jordan would have won those titles without pippen.

[Nolebull813]

Lebron needed to stack an all star team to win 2 of his 3 titles, and without Ray Allen gifting him a title he would be 2-7

Jordan won as many titles as Lebron lost. No comparison. 

I would say top 5 all time is 

1. Jordan 

2. Kareem

3. Wilt 

4. Magic 

5. Kobe 

My favorite player growing up was Vince Carter 

top 5 whiteys would be 

1. Dirk

2. Bird

3. Stockton 

4. J West 

5. Nash 

[Horsefly]

17 minutes ago, HooverOutlaw said:

Jordan would have won those titles without pippen.

All 6?  Nah, I dont agree 

[DevilDog]

1 hour ago, HooverOutlaw said:

Jordan would have won those titles without pippen.

Why didn't he do it b4 Pippen?

[DevilDog]

1 hour ago, Nolebull813 said:

Lebron needed to stack an all star team to win 2 of his 3 titles, and without Ray Allen gifting him a title he would be 2-7

Jordan won as many titles as Lebron lost. No comparison. 

I would say top 5 all time is 

1. Jordan 

2. Kareem

3. Wilt 

4. Magic 

5. Kobe 

My favorite player growing up was Vince Carter 

top 5 whiteys would be 

1. Dirk

2. Bird

3. Stockton 

4. J West 

5. Nash 

To be fair those 5 white dudes were ballers too.  Rick Barry, Bob Cousy and Pete Maravich

[noonereal]

21 hours ago, Horsefly said:

He’s not a bad choice, as long as he wasn’t pulled out from the paint to guard more athletic big man like we have today.  

his style of play doesn’t transcend across all eras like Jordan’s does. 

he developed teh sky hook because they took away teh dunk from him, who knows what he would have developed to cope today? 

I feel confident he would have. 

[CaliNorth]

On 4/20/2020 at 9:41 AM, DevilDog said:

I disagree with this.  Because he would dominate what is considered Centers in today's game and now with the zone Defense he has no reason to be pulled from the paint.  Remember he was a great passer too.  I am not arguing against Jordan because he's been made mythical.  Kareem was incredible.  I can see him and magic going back and forth till he got Kareem on the block for that Hook and I was not a fan of his I was a Fan of the Sixers and Dr J.  But Kareem was unstoppable.  

Horsefly brings up a valid point . I know  you and I briefly touched  on Kareem in another thread earlier, where I said Kareem was my first favorite player when he was with the bucks . But to horsefly's comment, Dave Cowans  really exposed Kareem when playing a player who could pull him from the paint, and with superior athleticism . He was traded to LA soon thereafter. Then Walton completely outplayed  Kareem in 1977 Western finals. Big Red was one of a few that could defend Kareem ( Thurmond ). Waltons speed and athleticism and tempo negated Kareem. Then you look to 85-86 Houston Rockets with the twin towers . That team just blasted the Lakers and was on the brink of owning the west for the foreseeable future . Problem was that the next season , Sampson blew out his knee and Lewis Loyd and Lewis were both suspended for the year , and the Rockets didn't emerge again until the 90's . The season Magic arrived in LA, Kareem was absolutely great that season . But after that , Kareem wasn't the sole 1rst priority on the Lakers anymore . Still great, but not quite as dominant . The game started to evolve with Bird, Magic, and finally Jordan , where the small players started to take over more. But if you take longevity , no one was like Kareem . He presence was great over 3 decades, from Power Memorial. to UCLA, to Bucks and Lakers. But he would not be on my 1rst all time starting 5 if I had to choose one for center . 

[CaliNorth]

11 minutes ago, CaliNorth said:

Horsefly brings up a valid point . I know  you and I briefly touched  on Kareem in another thread earlier, where I said Kareem was my first favorite player when he was with the bucks . But to horsefly's comment, Dave Cowans  really exposed Kareem when playing a player who could pull him from the paint, and with superior athleticism . He was traded to LA soon thereafter. Then Walton completely outplayed  Kareem in 1977 Western finals. Big Red was one of a few that could defend Kareem ( Thurmond ). Waltons speed and athleticism and tempo negated Kareem. Then you look to 85-86 Houston Rockets with the twin towers . That team just blasted the Lakers and was on the brink of owning the west for the foreseeable future . Problem was that the next season , Sampson blew out his knee and Lewis Loyd and Lewis were both suspended for the year , and the Rockets didn't emerge again until the 90's . The season Magic arrived in LA, Kareem was absolutely great that season . But after that , Kareem wasn't the sole 1rst priority on the Lakers anymore . Still great, but not quite as dominant . The game started to evolve with Bird, Magic, and finally Jordan , where the small players started to take over more. But if you take longevity , no one was like Kareem . He presence was great over 3 decades, from Power Memorial. to UCLA, to Bucks and Lakers. But he would not be on my 1rst all time starting 5 if I had to choose one for center . 

I meant Mitchell Wiggins  and Lewis Lloyd when referring to suspension of Rockets guards in 86-87 season 

[DevilDog]

6 hours ago, CaliNorth said:

Horsefly brings up a valid point . I know  you and I briefly touched  on Kareem in another thread earlier, where I said Kareem was my first favorite player when he was with the bucks . But to horsefly's comment, Dave Cowans  really exposed Kareem when playing a player who could pull him from the paint, and with superior athleticism . He was traded to LA soon thereafter. Then Walton completely outplayed  Kareem in 1977 Western finals. Big Red was one of a few that could defend Kareem ( Thurmond ). Waltons speed and athleticism and tempo negated Kareem. Then you look to 85-86 Houston Rockets with the twin towers . That team just blasted the Lakers and was on the brink of owning the west for the foreseeable future . Problem was that the next season , Sampson blew out his knee and Lewis Loyd and Lewis were both suspended for the year , and the Rockets didn't emerge again until the 90's . The season Magic arrived in LA, Kareem was absolutely great that season . But after that , Kareem wasn't the sole 1rst priority on the Lakers anymore . Still great, but not quite as dominant . The game started to evolve with Bird, Magic, and finally Jordan , where the small players started to take over more. But if you take longevity , no one was like Kareem . He presence was great over 3 decades, from Power Memorial. to UCLA, to Bucks and Lakers. But he would not be on my 1rst all time starting 5 if I had to choose one for center . 

I remember before Pippen and really developed around 1990.  MJ was considered a ball hog and criticised heavily for not making his teammates better.  Those are facts

When you bring up Jordan in comparison to today's superstars and champions, many people rush to Jordan's defense citing that he played in an era where the quality of player was much better. 

And with the likes of Magic, Kareem, Bird, Isiah Thomas, etc,  And that is undeniable.  He did play at the same time as those players...but he never BEAT them!  At least not at their peaks! 

Ask anyone what the golden age of the NBA was and they will surely say it was the 80's because that's when all the aforementioned players were at their best. 

So why did it take Jordan till the 90's to win?  Who gets credit for just being in the same league? 

Not until The Bad Boy Pistons were injured and Magic had HIV could Jordan overcome his "competition" for his first title. 

This is how his resume reads for his years in the NBA when the competition was at its highest

84-85 First Round Loss to the Milwaukee Bucks 3-1

85-86 Swept First Round By Boston Celtics

86-87 Swept First Round By Boston Celtics

87-88 Second Round Loss to Detroit Pistons 4-1

88-89 Second Round Loss to Detroit Pistons 4-2

89-90 Eastern Conference Finals Loss to Detroit Pistons 4-3

After the golden age of the 80's is when Jordan was able to take advantage of these former stars, now all old or injured, and take over the league. 

One gets so tired of hearing that "Jordan would find a way to win". It makes you wonder why he didn't find it sooner against the best competition.

[Horsefly]

22 minutes ago, DevilDog said:

I remember before Pippen and really developed around 1990.  MJ was considered a ball hog and criticised heavily for not making his teammates better.  Those are facts

When you bring up Jordan in comparison to today's superstars and champions, many people rush to Jordan's defense citing that he played in an era where the quality of player was much better. 

And with the likes of Magic, Kareem, Bird, Isiah Thomas, etc,  And that is undeniable.  He did play at the same time as those players...but he never BEAT them!  At least not at their peaks! 

Ask anyone what the golden age of the NBA was and they will surely say it was the 80's because that's when all the aforementioned players were at their best. 

So why did it take Jordan till the 90's to win?  Who gets credit for just being in the same league? 

Not until The Bad Boy Pistons were injured and Magic had HIV could Jordan overcome his "competition" for his first title. 

This is how his resume reads for his years in the NBA when the competition was at its highest

84-85 First Round Loss to the Milwaukee Bucks 3-1

85-86 Swept First Round By Boston Celtics

86-87 Swept First Round By Boston Celtics

87-88 Second Round Loss to Detroit Pistons 4-1

88-89 Second Round Loss to Detroit Pistons 4-2

89-90 Eastern Conference Finals Loss to Detroit Pistons 4-3

After the golden age of the 80's is when Jordan was able to take advantage of these former stars, now all old or injured, and take over the league. 

One gets so tired of hearing that "Jordan would find a way to win". It makes you wonder why he didn't find it sooner against the best competition.

He didn’t win b/c his teammates weren’t very good and coaching was average at best.  but he sure held his own, averaging about 25-30 pts per game, 3 assists and ~5 rebounds, his 1st 3 seasons.  

[DevilDog]

3 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

He didn’t win b/c his teammates weren’t very good.  but he sure held his own, averaging about 25-30 pts per game, 3 assists and ~5 rebounds, his 1st 3 seasons.  

Dominique did the same thing.  

[Horsefly]

4 minutes ago, DevilDog said:

Dominique did the same thing.  

Dominique wasn’t an average player by any means, hall of famer and considered by many top 50 of all time.  What separates greats like these men with impressive stats are titles and rings.  Jordan also had way more season scoring titles and all defense accolades over Dominique 

[DevilDog]

I dont see any difference in the rosters.  He beat an old Pistons and HIV Magic Lakers.  Perspective.  

1988 Bulls starting 5: Jordan,  Vincent, Grant, Cartwright, Sellers.  Pippen is on this roster and 6th Man along with Paxson

1989 Bulls: Jordan, Pippen, Carthwright, Grant Vincent. Craig Hodges 6th man

1991 1st championship roster

10  B.J. Armstrong     
24    Bill Cartwright    
54    Horace Grant    
14    Craig Hodges    
2    Dennis Hopson    
23    Michael Jordan    
34    Stacey King    
53    Cliff Levingston    
5    John Paxson    
32    Will Perdue    
33    Scottie Pippen    
42    Scott Williams 

[DevilDog]

Check out what Dennis says about Scottie

 

[Horsefly]

17 minutes ago, DevilDog said:

I dont see any difference in the rosters.  He beat an old Pistons and HIV Magic Lakers.  Perspective.  

1988 Bulls starting 5: Jordan,  Vincent, Grant, Cartwright, Sellers.  Pippen is on this roster and 6th Man along with Paxson

1989 Bulls: Jordan, Pippen, Carthwright, Grant Vincent. Craig Hodges 6th man

1991 1st championship roster

10  B.J. Armstrong     
24    Bill Cartwright    
54    Horace Grant    
14    Craig Hodges    
2    Dennis Hopson    
23    Michael Jordan    
34    Stacey King    
53    Cliff Levingston    
5    John Paxson    
32    Will Perdue    
33    Scottie Pippen    
42    Scott Williams 

The difference is Phil Jackson (‘89) , he needed a few years to put his stamp on the team.  

agree though, pippen was one of the greatest.  Easily top 5 in the league during title years 

[DevilDog]

7 hours ago, CaliNorth said:

Horsefly brings up a valid point . I know  you and I briefly touched  on Kareem in another thread earlier, where I said Kareem was my first favorite player when he was with the bucks . But to horsefly's comment, Dave Cowans  really exposed Kareem when playing a player who could pull him from the paint, and with superior athleticism . He was traded to LA soon thereafter. Then Walton completely outplayed  Kareem in 1977 Western finals. Big Red was one of a few that could defend Kareem ( Thurmond ). Waltons speed and athleticism and tempo negated Kareem. Then you look to 85-86 Houston Rockets with the twin towers . That team just blasted the Lakers and was on the brink of owning the west for the foreseeable future . Problem was that the next season , Sampson blew out his knee and Lewis Loyd and Lewis were both suspended for the year , and the Rockets didn't emerge again until the 90's . The season Magic arrived in LA, Kareem was absolutely great that season . But after that , Kareem wasn't the sole 1rst priority on the Lakers anymore . Still great, but not quite as dominant . The game started to evolve with Bird, Magic, and finally Jordan , where the small players started to take over more. But if you take longevity , no one was like Kareem . He presence was great over 3 decades, from Power Memorial. to UCLA, to Bucks and Lakers. But he would not be on my 1rst all time starting 5 if I had to choose one for center . 

This is not True.  Kareem was playing with some old Lakers vs. A Younger Portland team.  @Horsefly he's spreading false info.  The games were fairly close Kareem was the leading scorer in every game except game one and he scored 30 in that one.  He dominated Walton and led in Rebounds damn near every game.  He had old guys on that team in 1977 .   He doesn't get the respect he deserves because he was aloof and hard to get along with.  Hell the NBA Sorta blackballed him for years.  Walton didn't outplay Kareem.   Hell he dropped 40 on Walton's ass in Game 2>  🤣

 

Game 1, May 6
Portland Trail Blazers	121	Final
Los Angeles Lakers	109

PTS	E. Tatum-LAL	32
TRB	M. Lucas-POR	15

Game 2, May 8 Portland Trail Blazers 99 Final Los Angeles Lakers 97   PTS K. Abdul-Jabbar-LAL 40 TRB 2 tied 1

Game 3, May 10
Los Angeles Lakers	97	Final
Portland Trail Blazers	102

PTS	2 tied	22
TRB	K. Abdul-Jabbar-LAL

Game 4, May 13
Los Angeles Lakers	101	Final
Portland Trail Blazers	105

PTS	K. Abdul-Jabbar-LAL	30
TRB	K. Abdul-Jabbar-LAL

GAME 1

Portland Trail Blazers (1-0)

 

	Basic Box Score Stats
Starters	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Bill Walton	45:00	10	16	.625	2	3	.667	4	9	13	6	0	0		5	22
Johnny Davis	42:00	6	13	.462	8	11	.727	0	2	2	3	3	0		0	20
Maurice Lucas	40:00	11	15	.733	6	6	1.000	3	12	15	6	2	0		3	28
Lionel Hollins	37:00	9	21	.429	7	8	.875	1	4	5	5	4	0		4	25
Bob Gross	29:00	5	7	.714	2	2	1.000	1	2	3	6	0	1		4	12
Reserves	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS

Los Angeles Lakers (0-1)

	Basic Box Score Stats
Starters	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Earl Tatum	45:00	16	23	.696	0	0		1	6	7	3	2	0		6	32
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar	43:00	11	19	.579	8	9	.889	3	7	10	5	1	0		4	30
Don Chaney	36:00	3	10	.300	0	2	.000	3	0	3	2	3	0		2	6
Cazzie Russell	35:00	4	12	.333	7	7	1.000	2	4	6	2	1	0		4	15
Don Ford	20:00	5	11	.455	0	0		2	1	3	3	0	0		2	10

 

GAME 2 Look at the Lakers Bench 

Portland Trail Blazers (2-0)

.

	Basic Box Score Stats
Starters	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Team Totals	240	44	92	.478	11	17	.647	10	30	40	26	16	8	20	25	99
Bill Walton	43:00	7	14	.500	0	0		4	13	17	2	1	4		3	14
Maurice Lucas	42:00	6	18	.333	4	6	.667	0	9	9	3	3	0		3	16
Lionel Hollins	41:00	13	27	.481	5	8	.625	2	2	4	9	8	0		4	31
Johnny Davis	27:00	1	4	.250	0	0		0	2	2	4	1	1		5	2
Bob Gross	25:00	2	7	.286	1	1	1.000	2	2	4	2	0	3		3	5
Reserves	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Herm Gilliam	28:00	12	18	.667	0	0		2	1	3	2	2	0		3	24
Larry Steele	21:00	2	3	.667	1	2	.500	0	0	0	2	1	0		2	5
Lloyd Neal	7:00	0	0		0	0		0	0	0	2	0	0		1	0
Robin Jones	4:00	1	1	1.000	0	0		0	1	1	0	0	0		1	2
Wally Walker	2:00	0	0		0	0		0	0	0	0	0	0		0	0

Los Angeles Lakers (0-2)

.

	Basic Box Score Stats
Starters	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Team Totals	240	39	86	.453	19	25	.760	13	35	48	26	10	4	25	19	9
Earl Tatum	44:00	4	15	.267	2	2	1.000	2	6	8	4	1	1		3	10
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar	43:00	17	23	.739	6	9	.667	3	14	17	1	1	3		3	40
Don Chaney	41:00	2	7	.286	2	2	1.000	4	3	7	6	2	0		3	6
Cazzie Russell	39:00	8	20	.400	5	7	.714	2	5	7	6	3	0		1	21
Don Ford	28:00	4	7	.571	2	2	1.000	0	3	3	6	1	0		4	10
Reserves	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Tom Abernethy	15:00	1	4	.250	0	0		2	0	2	1	0	0		1	2
Johnny Neumann	10:00	2	6	.333	0	0		0	0	0	1	1	0		2	4
Bo Lamar	8:00	0	3	.000	0	0		0	2	2	0	1	0		1	0
Cornell Warner	7:00	0	0		0	0		0	1	1	1	0	0		1	0
C.J. Kupec	5:00	1	1	1.000	2	3	.667	0	1	1	0	0	0		0	4