noonereal Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 On 11/24/2016 at 5:29 PM, Sammyswordsman said: They God help us. So "they" being all knowing and all wise dictated how you were to be used. The more I learn about this cult, the more I am...... let's just drop it all and forget this chapter in our happy hobby! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat_Scratch Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 On 11/24/2016 at 8:00 AM, HawgGoneIt said: You are frankly, the lone guy berating the existence of that poll. One of your primary arguments is that it was not inclusive, yet you prefer a compilation poll of polls created by people most of us have no clue who they are, while the 30 was a poll that was certainly compiled by people that we all chatted with on a daily basis. I liked and continue to like the compilation by dntn31, it is well put together and does show us what all those other polls have, in case, like myself, we didn't go out of our way to go look at them each separately. As to hobbyist poll, etc., all the polls are nothing but that. Some guy, or group putting together what they think in their own minds is the best teams, the difference was, and remains, the platform in which they are published. If USAT took an exact copy of the 30 and published it's top 25 from there, it would no longer be a "hobbyist" poll by your definition. Any way, sorry if anyone felt alienated by the 30. That was not it's intention. I can tell you this, if many had expressed concerns over that poll being sticky, it would never have been pinned. Happy Thanksgiving, NOR. As always, I appreciate your viewpoint and respect you as a logical person. I truly do hate that you felt that way about what we were trying to do over there with that poll. He's not the lone guy. Several silent members agree with Nor and his opinion. Why would the Dirty 30 feel the need to hide their week submission to the poll each week unless it was just a few members submitting? At least when NOR and some other members of DJ's board posted their submission they gave everyone a chance to question why teams were ranked where they were. The Dirty 30 formed a club behind close doors and didn't even have the balls to put a list out of the members submitting the rankings. For all anyone knows it could have been just one person making the poll. I'm sorry but I'm going with NOR on this. I'm not saying the Dirty 30 wasn't good, It was most weeks, but if you want a strong poll then let the members submit a ranking each week and publish each members submission along with the poll. Then the Dirty 30 becomes something powerful. This is an honest opinion of a long time supporter of Rivals and National High School Football. It's only one opinion, but it is a voice that needs to be heard. Don't take the Hillary route and think you can do what you want and come out ahead. This site's existence depends on intelligent posters to survive, plain and simple. Some of you have already burned your bridges on the Texas site. What will you do if this site fails? Make another and repeat? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLien12x Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 15 minutes ago, Cat_Scratch said: He's not the lone guy. Several silent members agree with Nor and his opinion. Why would the Dirty 30 feel the need to hide their week submission to the poll each week unless it was just a few members submitting? At least when NOR and some other members of DJ's board posted their submission they gave everyone a chance to question why teams were ranked where they were. The Dirty 30 formed a club behind close doors and didn't even have the balls to put a list out of the members submitting the rankings. For all anyone knows it could have been just one person making the poll. I'm sorry but I'm going with NOR on this. I'm not saying the Dirty 30 wasn't good, It was most weeks, but if you want a strong poll then let the members submit a ranking each week and publish each members submission along with the poll. Then the Dirty 30 becomes something powerful. This is an honest opinion of a long time supporter of Rivals and National High School Football. It's only one opinion, but it is a voice that needs to be heard. Don't take the Hillary route and think you can do what you want and come out ahead. This site's existence depends on intelligent posters to survive, plain and simple. Some of you have already burned your bridges on the Texas site. What will you do if this site fails? Make another and repeat? What I discovered as being in the know for the Dirty 30, was that some of the fun of what brought me to the national board to begin with was lost to me. The fun of tearing down DJ's ranking was gone, because I had some input into what the product was. Difficult to tear down something that you had a hand in shaping. DJ never released who his "contributors" were either, but that didn't stop many of us from railing at him and hoping that we could help adjust his/their thinking for the next weeks edition. I found that to be a big part of the fun. Of course, we mostly all tore down opposition polls more than we did the 100, because the 100 was where we laid our heads so to speak. As far as the Texas site... I could give a shit less. That guy finally came to his senses but imo he tried corralling the users as if they were cattle. Funneled everyone there and then quickly limited options. I would just as soon go back state side at my state boards than to feel corralled by a dude that worked it like that. In the end, he did make a classy move though. So there is that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 1 minute ago, HawgGoneIt said: What I discovered as being in the know for the Dirty 30, was that some of the fun of what brought me to the national board to begin with was lost to me. The fun of tearing down DJ's ranking was gone, because I had some input into what the product was. Difficult to tear down something that you had a hand in shaping. DJ never released who his "contributors" were either, but that didn't stop many of us from railing at him and hoping that we could help adjust his/their thinking for the next weeks edition. I found that to be a big part of the fun. Of course, we mostly all tore down opposition polls more than we did the 100, because the 100 was where we laid our heads so to speak. very insightful I am glad to see you learned this. ---------------------------------- As to DJ, why on earth is he referenced? I like the guy but he was never a good pollster in spite of his vast knowledge. Anyone reasonably analytical knew this. Forget what DJ did would be my guiding word. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat_Scratch Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 14 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said: What I discovered as being in the know for the Dirty 30, was that some of the fun of what brought me to the national board to begin with was lost to me. The fun of tearing down DJ's ranking was gone, because I had some input into what the product was. Difficult to tear down something that you had a hand in shaping. DJ never released who his "contributors" were either, but that didn't stop many of us from railing at him and hoping that we could help adjust his/their thinking for the next weeks edition. I found that to be a big part of the fun. Of course, we mostly all tore down opposition polls more than we did the 100, because the 100 was where we laid our heads so to speak. As far as the Texas site... I could give a shit less. That guy finally came to his senses but imo he tried corralling the users as if they were cattle. Funneled everyone there and then quickly limited options. I would just as soon go back state side at my state boards than to feel corralled by a dude that worked it like that. In the end, he did make a classy move though. So there is that. If you drop out of the National forum then that is one less voice from your area we lose, and maybe the one drop in the bucket that could help Georgia's High School Athletes get their recognition and possibly noticed by some college. I know that Prep Gridiron has a long way to go to be held in esteem on a national level, and recognized by recriters, but the road to the kingdom has to start somewhere. Your voice counts and would be lost to National HS Football if you go stateside. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 9 minutes ago, noonereal said: very insightful I am glad to see you learned this. ---------------------------------- As to DJ, why on earth is he referenced? I like the guy but he was never a good pollster in spite of his vast knowledge. Anyone reasonably analytical knew this. Forget what DJ did would be my guiding word. I only referenced DJ and his poll as a guideline as to what brought some of us along to the national conversation.Some of you guys have been around the national side of the conversation much longer than myself, so I understand that my view is coming from a different angle. I think the 30 model was maybe similar to what DJ claimed he was doing, hence the mention. I know for sure the 30 was doing it as DJ claimed his was. It appeared to be the best thing going when I arrived at the old site, even if I had a lot of fun slashing at it at times. I'm only tossing my thoughts out there because I hope that it gives us all some more fat to chew on in the process we are hashing out here.There is a change in how you end up viewing a poll if you helped shape it directly, unless you felt that your opinion was totally ignored at the input level. Not sure how that can/would change the board dynamics, if at all. I think the conversation would certainly shift from, "What the hell are you thinking by placing such and such there?" to "How do we place such and such?" The angles we all take in conversations and civility levels would be different etc. At the same time, I don't disagree that the more input the better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 13 minutes ago, Cat_Scratch said: If you drop out of the National forum then that is one less voice from your area we lose, and maybe the one drop in the bucket that could help Georgia's High School Athletes get their recognition and possibly noticed by some college. I know that Prep Gridiron has a long way to go to be held in esteem on a national level, and recognized by recriters, but the road to the kingdom has to start somewhere. Your voice counts and would be lost to National HS Football if you go stateside. I agree. I'm not planning to drop out. Just stating the reason as to why some bridges may be burned, and why they got burned. That was my attitude as to striking a match to my bridge if it got burned in Texas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 1 minute ago, HawgGoneIt said: I'm only tossing my thoughts out there because I hope that it gives us all some more fat to chew on in the process we are hashing out here.There is a change in how you end up viewing a poll if you helped shape it directly, unless you felt that your opinion was totally ignored at the input level. Not sure how that can/would change the board dynamics, if at all. I think the conversation would certainly shift from, "What the hell are you thinking by placing such and such there?" to "How do we place such and such?" The angles we all take in conversations and civility levels would be different etc. At the same time, I don't disagree that the more input the better. I think it pretty clear how polls should be handled here. The national media polls are THE POLLS. Period. They just are. Yeah they suck but they have the platform and that is what it's about. Name recognition. We need them at the top of the board every week to tear down and expose. This adds to the site credibility and it will shape things to some small degree. Anyone who thinks DJ did not influence other polls is very mistaken. And frankly, it was not always for the better. He created a name recognition which gave him sway. If a site poll is produced next year it needs to be all inclusive. No pseudo logic again invoked to give control to a few. And that is what this "douche chills" poll was about. Control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 12 minutes ago, noonereal said: I think it pretty clear how polls should be handled here. The national media polls are THE POLLS. Period. They just are. Yeah they suck but they have the platform and that is what it's about. Name recognition. We need them at the top of the board every week to tear down and expose. This adds to the site credibility and it will shape things to some small degree. Anyone who thinks DJ did not influence other polls is very mistaken. And frankly, it was not always for the better. He created a name recognition which gave him sway. If a site poll is produced next year it needs to be all inclusive. No pseudo logic again invoked to give control to a few. And that is what this "douche chills" poll was about. Control. So, if a group of guys chose to continue with a poll like we saw emerge this year, and it just wasn't adopted as a site poll... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECHS05 Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 36 minutes ago, noonereal said: very insightful I am glad to see you learned this. ---------------------------------- As to DJ, why on earth is he referenced? I like the guy but he was never a good pollster in spite of his vast knowledge. Anyone reasonably analytical knew this. Forget what DJ did would be my guiding word. The same reason you mention CalPreps even though its not a good national ranking service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat_Scratch Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 It should be a compilation poll no matter the ignorance from some of the contributors. You beat bias and ignorance with enough input. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 7 minutes ago, Cat_Scratch said: It should be a compilation poll no matter the ignorance from some of the contributors. You beat bias and ignorance with enough input. If you only had a brain! LOL Yes, ignorance and bias is balanced by numbers. Rigid control gives the results the ones in charge want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 13 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said: So, if a group of guys chose to continue with a poll like we saw emerge this year, and it just wasn't adopted as a site poll... Sorry, I am not sure what you are asking... can you expand on the question? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 16 minutes ago, Cat_Scratch said: It should be a compilation poll no matter the ignorance from some of the contributors. You beat bias and ignorance with enough input. How do you get that? How do we know that everyone's opinion is weighed? How do we know that everyone''s opinion wasn't already weighed? Etc. I think these questions are what causes a site poll to not be very plausible. Perhaps some hobby club polls are what there is going to be here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 10 minutes ago, noonereal said: Sorry, I am not sure what you are asking... can you expand on the question? Thanks I wasn't really asking. I was opening a line of thought and left it for the reader to continue with their own logic and input. dot dot dot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 Ultimately, this site belongs to Prep. He has to be the voice at the head of any poll that the site adopts, other than the comp poll which is just math, although some input on which polls are included is needed. That's just my logic and continuation of my own dot dot dot from earlier. Other than that, you are likely going to have some guys making their own rankings that garner respect or ire depending upon the perspective of the critic. Again... apologies for pinning the Dirty 30 at the old place. Never knew it was such a terrible idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammyswordsman Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 Comp polls are no fun I agree with Hawg that the fun comes in supporting a ranking you agree with and on the flip side bashing and making someone defend a poll you don't agree with this process forces both the stacker and defender to do homework and ultimately grow their OOS knowledge we can't engage a comp poll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammyswordsman Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 1 hour ago, noonereal said: God help us. So "they" being all knowing and all wise dictated how you were to be used. The more I learn about this cult, the more I am...... Don't blaspheme the Curia . "They" provide nourishment and protection from the cave dwellers 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 2 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said: I wasn't really asking. I was opening a line of thought and left it for the reader to continue with their own logic and input. dot dot dot so you are saying, keep the "30" poll but don't advertise it as a site poll? I think any poll any poster or group of posters do is fine. Maybe call it the WESAYSO Poll ? (Remember the show Dinosaurs? A great show filled with social and political commentary. WESAYSO was a group of Dinosaurs who exercised power in their own interest and all other dinosaurs were afraid to challenge.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 11 minutes ago, Sammyswordsman said: Comp polls are no fun I agree with Hawg that the fun comes in supporting a ranking you agree with and on the flip side bashing and making someone defend a poll you don't agree with this process forces both the stacker and defender to do homework and ultimately grow their OOS knowledge we can't engage a comp poll I think this is the conundrum. For there to be a decent poll there has to be continuity in the methodology. It just seemed like the core contributors had to remain the same, or the methodology became shaky. Who those core contributors are/was maybe should come to a vote? Even then, would we continue revisiting this issue? Just tossing stuff out there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 18 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said: How do you get that? How do we know that everyone's opinion is weighed? How do we know that everyone''s opinion wasn't already weighed? Etc. I think these questions are what causes a site poll to not be very plausible. Perhaps some hobby club polls are what there is going to be here. honestly, what do you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 11 minutes ago, noonereal said: so you are saying, keep the "30" poll but don't advertise it as a site poll? I think any poll any poster or group of posters do is fine. Maybe call it the WESAYSO Poll ? (Remember the show Dinosaurs? A great show filled with social and political commentary. WESAYSO was a group of Dinosaurs who exercised power in their own interest and all other dinosaurs were afraid to challenge.) See my above post. I was onto that before your post appeared and just didn't want to retype it all to get your post quoted in there also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 1 minute ago, HawgGoneIt said: I think this is the conundrum. For there to be a decent poll there has to be continuity in the methodology. It just seemed like the core contributors had to remain the same, or the methodology became shaky. Who those core contributors are/was maybe should come to a vote? Even then, would we continue revisiting this issue? Just tossing stuff out there... a vote is ALWAYS a popularity contest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 10 minutes ago, noonereal said: honestly, what do you mean? I'm just tossing out obvious problems with being all inclusive with any poll. Eventually some entity has to decide where placements fall. In other words, some opinions may ultimately be weighed, or not etc. I was also bringing in the thought processes that perhaps board banter and input did weigh on the 30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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